In Case You Missed It - David Rudolf and Jerry Buting

Yeah they Hill Man Morning Show on demand. Knowledge and pin on your schedule at WAS. Dot com. It is my pleasure to welcome to high profile attorneys. Who feature prominently. And one of them any true crime documentaries or two of the many 2 time documentaries I am. Abnormally addicted addicted to do and we are joined this morning by David Rudolph. Who we all got to know during the staircase hey David. Good morning. And we're also joined by Jerry computing from making a murderer who we've had on the Shelby Ford Gerri good morning. Regarding. In Ellis of course you're a particular favorite area and now yes I was fortunate to see Jerry with dean when they were here at the Berklee performance center in Boston I think a couple years ago. Derek record here on and you guys are gonna be back in in in Somerville and here doing. Something which is called true crime shattering the illusion of justice. Arts at the armory in Summerville on Sunday. From eight until 930. And I wanna talk a little bit about that but I can't contain myself would David's ominous start with the U. A part David where do you stand on the owls. Theory. I actually think it is very very plausible theory or without the actual wounds. Were inflicted on tackling Peterson scale and that. That's great change for me you know when I first ordered. Oh with a lot of other people sort of true literally choke. But when you really get into the yeah evidence and start looking at some of the evidence which we world. Back in 2002. And 2003. Boat which we really didn't. Put together. It becomes a very very possible here. What I like watching the staircase and it was really hard for you. Because. I'm sure that you know as it does a criminal defense attorney. Sometimes. You you may think that your client is is guilty here you may question whether your client I felt like you you really felt. Frustrated and upset after that verdict. Lose I was shattered after that first. I. Totally believe in Michael Peterson is innocent. The prosecution's theory never made sense to me. And and it is very. I think that that verdict orders an abomination. Jerry I was wondering if you would comment. All I know there's a second season of making a murderer calming and I don't know how much you know about it but I would I would one I would ask you what you do now and I've heard in and some say that this upcoming season is going to present. The cases of guilt as opposed innocence the you know anything about. No I think it might be confusing and where. A different compared Cambodia make. I I don't know any inside information about season to make any murder. I think in the presumption is that they're going to focus primarily on post conviction effort to all. It immediately and rendered actually. That's happened. Really in the last couple years since the first. He's been paired. But they've been pretty tight lipped about the contents and the earlier about the timing of when that are currently serves. Haven't been any. Any public hearings in either case here where Terry they can think Summers and all of the only hearings have been invented. It. And not federal courtroom courtroom where cameras are allowed our. They were president out on the street SE oral arguments for a friend and that's cease. Case in the seventh circuit so. I think all that's exactly conceivably as or comes up to second seed. Wanna ask both the U guys the same question I'll start with David David David how many. What percentage do you think of those that are that are convicted of serious crime in our country like murder. Our are actually innocence. Well I guess he's the real question is are they innocent of the crime they were convicted of are supposed to be innocent of everything. I think that there's a probably a fairly large percentage. People who are in prison. Having been convicted of hate crime that is different than the war. They may have actually done. If you're asking if you're asking pure innocence and the people wrongfully convicted. And who are actually innocent I still think it's. It's a significant percentage toward the horror. Being locked up for years for something you didn't do so whether that's 1%. Or 2% you know when you multiply that out by the number of people who are present here talking thousands of people. In the staircase. That Netflix documentary for those who haven't seen it I've told you in ninety million times to watch it so I don't know why you avid. David defends Michael Peterson who's accused of killing his wife and he's convicted. And he does significant jail time. And I think you notice from one of things that stands out to me is. How physically and mentally taxing that jail time was on him that he did I. And that is on me that's really the horror of being an innocent man. That is found guilty of the crime like this. It is you know it was absolutely shocking to me you know I kept up with Michael but I hadn't seen him he then. Probably two or three years old when he came to court for that he during our post conviction here and where we actually got his conviction vacated. And once he walked him I was absolutely. Blown away by how. How much of the shadow of his former self he wasn't and if you watch the documentary I think you know you're at the same reaction or quite shock. Terry. Would you weigh in on where you stand on the percentage of and misinterpreted. People who we have in jail. Sure you know that a number of people tiger. Estimate. What that percentage hear it and that it's ranged from anywhere between one and you are at 8%. But. When it comes true murder for a sense. The most recent after that was kind of using the critical mathematical model and I think it says that I have 125. People currently sitting on death row. They in fact be factually innocent. Completely. It appears that even 1% where. A pop in and then got two million people present an America that's 20000 people who beat actually actually innocent. Going to the kind of traumatic. Physical and emotional experience that you. Reference to what Michael Pearson. You know yeah it really hear that nightmare. Horror of of being wrongly convicted and playing yourself prison. Particularly if that something like a sexual assault because they're more harmful and are subject. Subject to abuse the president sort of serious problem. I think you need to continue to focus on trying to get people who you almost got here forty or however many thousands of people out. We'll also have to improve the system so we reduce the likelihood of future awful convictions. I met both of our guests today through television because I watch an awful and I watch an awful lot of TV. An addict. There are high profile attorneys David Rudolph and Jerry viewed in and Jerry do you still believe that Steven Avery is innocent. I do I do and you know I I think people need to stay tuned about. What's gonna happen in this case so. This current attorney has filed post conviction motions and she's uncovered a blatant violation of the state. Patent deliberately withheld. Very important evidence. Going toward an air traffic back. And evidence it will basically the computer analysis. That was not even booked into evidence. That seat in the main detect as special agents are under kept within the personal cause that's and so does the defense wouldn't I get a certain evidence and she's got some pretty strong evidence a matter gardeners. The court appeal sent it back we're hearing. So you know it is very typical approved incensed particularly. Electorate before where. A case where the police are to cancel the tanking evidence and manipulating evidence. Because who knows better how to do that and the police and how to cover the back. I and yeah yeah. We'll have. I know Mike Hsu probably wants to ask witches of David Rudolph. If David do you believe that Michael Peterson and and is outspoken nature against. Against the police and and the fact that he would run for mayor and been critical of the please. Contributed. To the proclivity to arrest him in and try to convict him in this case. Well you know I think that obviously your. In color their perceptions of him you know their human beings like everyone else and and act like somebody. You're much more likely to believe the war and that person and if you haven't been. So obviously that would play. And technique and they also yours fell victim to the to the sort of I was indeed it syndrome. That exists you know what whenever. Whatever race fast aren't any kind of mysterious circumstances. The the restrictions at all on the other spell and that that meant he could quickly. Of relevant. I think we consider. Put in that particular case can really lead to a bad case of operation. David how much do you think Michael Peterson sexuality played. And in this prost like the prosecutors using that as a bias. Are. I think you would say significant factor. I think it what it did that was legitimate change Atlantans. Through which the jury viewed the other evidence. Heard that the extent the other evidence was weak and the waters. Good morning dew out paint the defendant. As saying as saying EPA and the more likely it is that the jury's gonna overlook the efficiencies and yet I think that the. Jerry was ten crafts as much of the actually more so. Grandpa well couple days. Well you didn't. Because there are cameras or not allowed into chambers. That I really didn't and I'm excited about this in my book goes on episode where. In all of the trial of battle was over the jurors deliberating and the state of symmetry terrorist as a good citizen quite a few days and I think they were hoping for a very quick verdict and it's very academic. Without question there are some customers that back order there. Police out there like it was favorable to the defense and that if you're one of the here at least wonder or to get more veteran. You know I advocated that as it should be depth portion of the testimony back and people than anything else and all the well. You know it was. It was. The challenge. For me to sit there were used to that's for six weeks he did not like you are there we didn't I didn't trust them being. And it was forced to play at. The middleman between ASEAN Thailand. Or was and that's because but. I certainly understand why people that in press and the district could make emerge because I can't act precedent more. The person and I feel I feel worse for when it comes to Steven Avery case who would be you know I feel awful for him if he is innocent. But certainly Brandon Bass. Just as that your experience also Jerry did he really is. With what you know from an IQ point of view just unable to comprehend what was going on and he sits in jail blue with a life sentence. Yes no question and I think most people who watch the documentary. Recognize there was no evidence against Brendan backseat was happy that they used to try and that is uncle my card here and Avery and I'm glad they contacted by some people who've. That you know that can be nice time I recognize that thing. Well on what is this stickers her. Learning disabled but it might be and how can they do that Amaechi came out he questioned him about lawyer. Parents and unfortunately. The Supreme Court. US and court has passed on burned and pace when they credibility. Strengthens. Protection against that sort of obvious. Juveniles and the few states have passed laws and I would encourage that to be saying that. Prohibit the interrogation. A juvenile without an attorney present. Because it's it's just too easy there people like Brendan. Not rare that happens every day in this country as some. It has taken out at school but Canada's prince principal office in this case there can interrogate him and so. We need to stop that and I'm hopeful that at some point. Then they'll find justice so he's really. After trying to prevent this never happens again and by the way one lap on an. No bogeys and people understand what really happened abandoned it because that it be that good interrogation was the deal. I law required in Wisconsin that that became law six months before Brandon. Interrogations and go approximately out of the eighth in the country do not mandate. That the police record. A complete interrogation from India and when a person in custody and he's saying it's during these secret facts evidence. Well gentlemen if it weren't for the fact you have to have a lot agree I think I'd make a great attorney but I. I don't you know exaggerate I am proud that I can't say I can't take the schooling so it is always a pleasure to have actual attorneys on the show. And I think the event is it sounds like it's going to be incredible it's called true crime. Shattering the illusion of justice and it's happening on Sunday. At eight. PM arts at the armory in summer all. And you can get your tickets in advance for 26 dollars. Before it sells out. And I would highly advise you to do that and it has been great to have both. Jerry feuding and David Rudolph on the show my last thing. Three guises is is it true that. You guys met David because Jerry was your student at law school. And he he you lose one of my original students when I was really young professor. And and that I can I never I never eat there he'd become famous. Well yeah a constant thanks to Netflix both these guys and I'm sure that doesn't hurt when it comes to the billable hours. That I it's well thanks a lot and duke thanks for joining us and that nice work by a vote these guys I'd say yeah I hear your card readers. A lot. People are texting and that they believe Steve Avery till the end Brad and Nancy you know the real Michael Peterson of the bat I think that's a great thing about these things. Who really knows I on only the people that was that you change your mind him or if you change your mind I'm even here. Not firmly. I know. I don't know the medic came outlet when I was watching it as we got toward the end of the series. But more so that he might have been innocent you know the talent thinks came out after the fact they started examining you know things that the documentary hadn't presented and denied it made it one sided. I questioned it I do feel there is greater chance that Brendan assi was coerced into. False confection confession. They and Stephen Avery with guilty that I just don't know yeah. Interesting that he believes the owls theory. I'm soils but it was so di tale Larry Pollard the guy who did was a neighbor. Michael Peterson also a lawyer. He'd done DP got born biologist he went to the FBI. He got laboratory time. He he is highly detailed and that's what got it for me and you were like oh what about all the blocked. If a cut yourself shaving. And as the Thomas and on your head of where the skin is really thing you can simply lied in this the first saw you staring into the scout yeah I'm legal now. Your circulation runs from your feed to your head and back down. What about your case I don't know I don't know a lot so you play all the way but again I just like white shoes said. You know you take you beauty. You know I imported napkin on it and squeezes middle stump lead them to set your head for credible. People don't want well either some people of plotting. If you're walking outside. In a warm there if you're woman walking outside in an owl who's mad tax in this fix their talents in the year added locks bomb F. It's gonna cause there's going to be a lot of blood demand for sure by any she'd been drinking so yeah it happens I want in the blood and really the word clocked yes. Don't you know while that you know plot you know like I'm not clocked in on a clocked knows this third are terrible.